1 00:00:08,830 --> 00:00:05,710 today we welcome science historian 2 00:00:11,350 --> 00:00:08,840 best-selling author and one of the 3 00:00:13,930 --> 00:00:11,360 world's best-known skeptics dr. Michael 4 00:00:16,330 --> 00:00:13,940 Shermer our back to skeptic oh he's here 5 00:00:18,820 --> 00:00:16,340 to talk about his new book heavens on 6 00:00:22,240 --> 00:00:18,830 earth the scientific search for the 7 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:22,250 afterlife immortality and utopia 8 00:00:27,910 --> 00:00:25,010 dr. Shermer it's always fun to talk to 9 00:00:31,229 --> 00:00:27,920 you you are one of my favorite skeptic 10 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:31,239 frenemies and it's good to have you back 11 00:00:37,270 --> 00:00:34,730 right here in in a hotel room as you can 12 00:00:39,490 --> 00:00:37,280 see in beautiful San Francisco the 13 00:00:42,550 --> 00:00:39,500 lighting is really funky here you get a 14 00:00:46,630 --> 00:00:42,560 little a little warm glow on my face 15 00:00:50,230 --> 00:00:46,640 how's that that's great 16 00:00:51,910 --> 00:00:50,240 you know I was just thinking before as I 17 00:00:55,229 --> 00:00:51,920 was kind of doing the introduction and 18 00:00:58,479 --> 00:00:55,239 stuff like oh man I wonder if they'll be 19 00:01:02,610 --> 00:00:58,489 another Michael Shermer I mean I think 20 00:01:05,469 --> 00:01:02,620 you captured a certain time and you 21 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:05,479 found your own lane and you found a 22 00:01:10,960 --> 00:01:08,690 voice I just wonder with you know things 23 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:10,970 change I wonder if that will ever come 24 00:01:15,580 --> 00:01:11,570 again 25 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:15,590 oh yeah sure there's lots of skeptics 26 00:01:21,190 --> 00:01:18,890 doing what I do you know I never wanted 27 00:01:23,110 --> 00:01:21,200 to be cult of personality for skeptic 28 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:23,120 magazine and skeptic Society when I'm 29 00:01:28,180 --> 00:01:25,610 gone you know moving on to the great 30 00:01:31,719 --> 00:01:28,190 iCloud above where my connectome will 31 00:01:34,300 --> 00:01:31,729 live forever but my physical body's done 32 00:01:36,219 --> 00:01:34,310 the skeptic magazine will continue the 33 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:36,229 skeptic Society will continue their you 34 00:01:42,039 --> 00:01:38,690 know there's you know plenty of funding 35 00:01:44,170 --> 00:01:42,049 for you know continuing the organization 36 00:01:47,020 --> 00:01:44,180 it's not based on me at all really I'm 37 00:01:48,730 --> 00:01:47,030 the currently driving force but and then 38 00:01:50,289 --> 00:01:48,740 in terms of my books you know I just try 39 00:01:52,090 --> 00:01:50,299 to do what you know write about what I'm 40 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:52,100 interested in that I think is relatively 41 00:01:57,039 --> 00:01:55,090 important but there's certainly nothing 42 00:01:59,320 --> 00:01:57,049 special about that there's a lot of 43 00:02:00,910 --> 00:01:59,330 great science writers I was just at a 44 00:02:02,859 --> 00:02:00,920 book event last night with Leonard Malad 45 00:02:04,450 --> 00:02:02,869 now and you know he's one of the great 46 00:02:06,730 --> 00:02:04,460 science writer Steve Pinker is one of my 47 00:02:08,859 --> 00:02:06,740 good friends as the Sam Harris ensued a 48 00:02:11,409 --> 00:02:08,869 lot of people writing about science and 49 00:02:14,289 --> 00:02:11,419 reason and skepticism so I think it's a 50 00:02:15,940 --> 00:02:14,299 big movement now and in fact my latest 51 00:02:17,259 --> 00:02:15,950 column I just that just came out inside 52 00:02:19,959 --> 00:02:17,269 of you American is on the rise of 53 00:02:22,030 --> 00:02:19,969 atheism that there's a lot more atheist 54 00:02:23,530 --> 00:02:22,040 than not not just the rise of the nuns 55 00:02:26,979 --> 00:02:23,540 the people that tick the box for no 56 00:02:28,809 --> 00:02:26,989 religious affiliation but because those 57 00:02:30,429 --> 00:02:28,819 people may be going to be supporting 58 00:02:32,739 --> 00:02:30,439 Deepak Chopra or something you know just 59 00:02:33,940 --> 00:02:32,749 the you know the New Age movements or 60 00:02:36,640 --> 00:02:33,950 whatever not necessarily become an 61 00:02:40,390 --> 00:02:36,650 atheist but but I think a lot of them 62 00:02:43,479 --> 00:02:40,400 now are the rise of atheism you know we 63 00:02:46,449 --> 00:02:43,489 are a powerful voting bloc so I am just 64 00:02:48,549 --> 00:02:46,459 one voice among many along with yourself 65 00:02:50,619 --> 00:02:48,559 well that's no no I'm on the other side 66 00:02:54,159 --> 00:02:50,629 but you're a you're a humble guy I 67 00:02:56,530 --> 00:02:54,169 appreciate appreciate humility because I 68 00:02:58,659 --> 00:02:56,540 think you really have made more of an 69 00:02:59,890 --> 00:02:58,669 impact but that's great you know and I'm 70 00:03:01,839 --> 00:02:59,900 so glad you're here 71 00:03:04,689 --> 00:03:01,849 I talked with you a couple years ago 72 00:03:06,069 --> 00:03:04,699 about your book the moral arc a book 73 00:03:08,170 --> 00:03:06,079 that I really liked we had a good 74 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:08,180 conversation on but this time around 75 00:03:14,739 --> 00:03:11,090 your latest book is kind of much closer 76 00:03:17,679 --> 00:03:14,749 to the skeptic Oh swing zone tell folks 77 00:03:23,799 --> 00:03:17,689 a little bit about what you set out to 78 00:03:25,299 --> 00:03:23,809 do with heavens on earth sort of a part 79 00:03:26,949 --> 00:03:25,309 of it as an extension of my previous 80 00:03:29,259 --> 00:03:26,959 book the moral arc I talked about 81 00:03:31,539 --> 00:03:29,269 utopias for example the attempts to 82 00:03:33,579 --> 00:03:31,549 create a heaven on earth and why that 83 00:03:35,979 --> 00:03:33,589 always fails but of course that's not 84 00:03:38,860 --> 00:03:35,989 what most people believe most people 85 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:38,870 believe that that there's some place to 86 00:03:44,439 --> 00:03:41,650 go after the death of the body and brain 87 00:03:48,250 --> 00:03:44,449 that the mind or soul or you know some 88 00:03:50,439 --> 00:03:48,260 incorporeal ethereal essence that 89 00:03:53,049 --> 00:03:50,449 represents who we are moves on to some 90 00:03:55,679 --> 00:03:53,059 other place so I just decided to take a 91 00:03:57,729 --> 00:03:55,689 swing at you know looking at the 92 00:03:59,589 --> 00:03:57,739 scientific aspects of that you know to 93 00:04:01,329 --> 00:03:59,599 what extent is that true what is it that 94 00:04:02,739 --> 00:04:01,339 different religions claim and so right 95 00:04:05,860 --> 00:04:02,749 off the bat for example there's a 96 00:04:07,509 --> 00:04:05,870 history to heaven and this is not like 97 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:07,519 seeing the history of cosmology where 98 00:04:11,589 --> 00:04:09,290 there's a sense of a growing yeah but I 99 00:04:13,989 --> 00:04:11,599 think heaven really takes us in another 100 00:04:15,969 --> 00:04:13,999 direction which is a direction that 101 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:15,979 you've covered and covered well in terms 102 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:18,890 of religion but you know I think what 103 00:04:23,290 --> 00:04:21,650 it's kind of a tricky word when you get 104 00:04:25,630 --> 00:04:23,300 into heaven I mean what I really wanted 105 00:04:26,090 --> 00:04:25,640 to focus on because like I say this has 106 00:04:28,130 --> 00:04:26,100 been 107 00:04:31,010 --> 00:04:28,140 topic of mine an interest of mine I've 108 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:31,020 probably interviewed have a hundred 109 00:04:34,910 --> 00:04:32,450 interviews with some of the top 110 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:34,920 consciousness researchers names that you 111 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:37,170 would recognize near-death experience 112 00:04:42,740 --> 00:04:40,170 researchers and yeah sure 113 00:04:44,540 --> 00:04:42,750 I guess where we might start where I 114 00:04:47,030 --> 00:04:44,550 thought we might start because heavens 115 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:47,040 on earth one of the areas you get into 116 00:04:51,230 --> 00:04:49,050 is near-death experience because I think 117 00:04:52,460 --> 00:04:51,240 when you look at science and you look at 118 00:04:54,890 --> 00:04:52,470 what's going on and what's made an 119 00:04:58,070 --> 00:04:54,900 impact in the culture certainly this 120 00:05:01,010 --> 00:04:58,080 idea of okay does this consciousness 121 00:05:03,050 --> 00:05:01,020 thing survive bodily death has been one 122 00:05:05,300 --> 00:05:03,060 place where we can kind of put our 123 00:05:10,070 --> 00:05:05,310 attention and really answer that 124 00:05:12,980 --> 00:05:10,080 question and I don't know we need to dig 125 00:05:15,830 --> 00:05:12,990 into that I don't know that you really 126 00:05:27,830 --> 00:05:15,840 did a very comprehensive job of looking 127 00:05:29,570 --> 00:05:27,840 at that research and though about the 128 00:05:32,590 --> 00:05:29,580 topic you think you pretty well-versed 129 00:05:35,060 --> 00:05:32,600 yeah yeah yeah that reincarnation 130 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:35,070 anomalous experiences and so on so the 131 00:05:40,100 --> 00:05:38,010 idea is that you know most of us are do 132 00:05:42,470 --> 00:05:40,110 list ik by nature so we have a feeling 133 00:05:43,970 --> 00:05:42,480 that there's something floating around 134 00:05:45,830 --> 00:05:43,980 up there beside you know that are 135 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:45,840 thoughts that are not just our brain and 136 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:47,970 chemicals and that and that essence that 137 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:50,730 sense we have is what leads us to think 138 00:05:55,100 --> 00:05:52,650 that you know this floats off the brain 139 00:05:58,190 --> 00:05:55,110 and goes off into somewhere else so the 140 00:06:00,560 --> 00:05:58,200 near-death experience then is alleged to 141 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:00,570 be an example or evidence of how this 142 00:06:05,390 --> 00:06:03,570 can happen and but of course we you know 143 00:06:08,810 --> 00:06:05,400 we start right up by pointing out that 144 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:08,820 the people are not actually dead it's 145 00:06:13,070 --> 00:06:09,570 near death 146 00:06:15,050 --> 00:06:13,080 they're not dead they're there near 147 00:06:16,700 --> 00:06:15,060 death and that's very different that is 148 00:06:19,150 --> 00:06:16,710 your brain your consciousness is still 149 00:06:21,860 --> 00:06:19,160 going at some level even if you're 150 00:06:23,900 --> 00:06:21,870 unconscious at the moment there's still 151 00:06:26,150 --> 00:06:23,910 some part part of your brain operating 152 00:06:28,070 --> 00:06:26,160 that generates these experiences so I 153 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:28,080 talked about whether it's a good topic 154 00:06:34,430 --> 00:06:33,090 to get into because that's well and and 155 00:06:35,990 --> 00:06:34,440 I want to go there because I think 156 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:36,000 that's kind of misunderstood and 157 00:06:39,710 --> 00:06:37,650 misconstrued by a lot of people we have 158 00:06:42,110 --> 00:06:39,720 a whole bunch of neuroscience that says 159 00:06:45,860 --> 00:06:42,120 these are the conditions under which a 160 00:06:47,390 --> 00:06:45,870 brain is able to function in terms of 161 00:06:50,420 --> 00:06:47,400 memory in terms of conscious experience 162 00:06:52,310 --> 00:06:50,430 so this idea of Neth death versus 163 00:06:53,930 --> 00:06:52,320 near-death you know we'll get into that 164 00:06:56,330 --> 00:06:53,940 a minute certainly when someone is 165 00:06:59,000 --> 00:06:56,340 completely comatose from every measure 166 00:07:03,580 --> 00:06:59,010 we have we don't believe there's any 167 00:07:08,420 --> 00:07:06,320 talked about holed up on Evan because I 168 00:07:09,740 --> 00:07:08,430 want to talk about him later but the 169 00:07:11,210 --> 00:07:09,750 first thing I want to hit you with is 170 00:07:12,890 --> 00:07:11,220 just that the first thing I did when I 171 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:12,900 got the books I went to the index and I 172 00:07:16,310 --> 00:07:14,370 said okay here are all the near-death 173 00:07:19,130 --> 00:07:16,320 experience researchers I've talked to 174 00:07:20,750 --> 00:07:19,140 are they in there no name after name 175 00:07:22,100 --> 00:07:20,760 after name none of them in their you 176 00:07:24,530 --> 00:07:22,110 know a couple years ago I interviewed 177 00:07:27,020 --> 00:07:24,540 Jan Holden from the University of North 178 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:27,030 Texas who along with Bruce dr. bruce 179 00:07:30,290 --> 00:07:29,010 grayson from university of virginia two 180 00:07:31,670 --> 00:07:30,300 of the most prominent names in 181 00:07:33,890 --> 00:07:31,680 near-death experience research they 182 00:07:37,340 --> 00:07:33,900 compiled this book the handbook of 183 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:37,350 near-death experiences mainly for people 184 00:07:41,570 --> 00:07:39,570 in the medical community so that when 185 00:07:43,580 --> 00:07:41,580 they encounter someone who comes up out 186 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:43,590 of a cardiac arrest and said hey i had 187 00:07:48,530 --> 00:07:45,690 this incredible experience they can be 188 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:48,540 at least familiar with what to tell them 189 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:50,490 at the time they published this book 190 00:07:57,170 --> 00:07:54,410 michael in 2009 they had over a hundred 191 00:08:00,440 --> 00:07:57,180 peer-reviewed papers that they included 192 00:08:02,719 --> 00:08:00,450 in their book by now there's over 200 193 00:08:07,159 --> 00:08:02,729 peer-reviewed papers i think i see any 194 00:08:08,570 --> 00:08:07,169 of that in your book look yeah i don't 195 00:08:10,730 --> 00:08:08,580 have to cite everybody that's ever 196 00:08:15,770 --> 00:08:10,740 written on the subject but you know any 197 00:08:17,500 --> 00:08:15,780 of them you don't say Sam carne uh who 198 00:08:19,940 --> 00:08:17,510 else 199 00:08:23,270 --> 00:08:19,950 presented both of them but you have 200 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:23,280 least cited them but anyway let's back 201 00:08:28,130 --> 00:08:26,610 up for a second and I have to say you 202 00:08:29,810 --> 00:08:28,140 know Evan Alexander I want to talk about 203 00:08:32,690 --> 00:08:29,820 him but technically he's not a 204 00:08:34,940 --> 00:08:32,700 near-death experience researcher he's a 205 00:08:37,070 --> 00:08:34,950 Harvard neurosurgeon that had a 206 00:08:39,950 --> 00:08:37,080 near-death experience great book about 207 00:08:42,140 --> 00:08:39,960 it right that's right but he knows a lot 208 00:08:43,940 --> 00:08:42,150 about it he knows as much as you do much 209 00:08:45,829 --> 00:08:43,950 as I do because he but he hasn't 210 00:08:48,290 --> 00:08:45,839 published peer-reviewed papers on 211 00:08:51,230 --> 00:08:48,300 looking at the science peer review paper 212 00:08:53,030 --> 00:08:51,240 thing is a that's a red herring I'm not 213 00:08:55,610 --> 00:08:53,040 denying that people have really 214 00:08:59,180 --> 00:08:55,620 variances you're you're treating this as 215 00:09:01,730 --> 00:08:59,190 if the experiences represent some other 216 00:09:03,759 --> 00:09:01,740 dimension I haven't a place to go and 217 00:09:06,470 --> 00:09:03,769 that is not at all what these 218 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:06,480 peer-reviewed papers indicate all's they 219 00:09:11,300 --> 00:09:08,730 say is that the people that have the 220 00:09:13,249 --> 00:09:11,310 experiences have very real experiences 221 00:09:16,370 --> 00:09:13,259 which I agree the experiences these 222 00:09:19,189 --> 00:09:16,380 people have are very real question is do 223 00:09:22,189 --> 00:09:19,199 they represent just neural activity or 224 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:22,199 neural activity and something else and I 225 00:09:26,210 --> 00:09:24,569 claim that none of the research I've 226 00:09:29,930 --> 00:09:26,220 read none of the stories that of the 227 00:09:32,090 --> 00:09:29,940 papers are evidence of an afterlife you 228 00:09:35,090 --> 00:09:32,100 do claim that and and Michael look 229 00:09:36,949 --> 00:09:35,100 you're a science guy and you love 230 00:09:39,199 --> 00:09:36,959 science you're poured on science and you 231 00:09:40,910 --> 00:09:39,209 do a good job and the other thing you do 232 00:09:43,699 --> 00:09:40,920 a good job on and it's been one of your 233 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:43,709 strong points with Christian apologist 234 00:09:49,519 --> 00:09:47,130 is you've called them on cherry-picking 235 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:49,529 right say taking bible scripture and 236 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:51,569 cherry picking out pieces that they want 237 00:09:57,379 --> 00:09:54,930 in order to make their point I gotta say 238 00:09:59,540 --> 00:09:57,389 I think that's what you've done here 239 00:10:02,059 --> 00:09:59,550 with the near-death experience research 240 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:02,069 and I'd give you just one example you 241 00:10:06,980 --> 00:10:05,130 saw your medical historian you're not a 242 00:10:09,350 --> 00:10:06,990 medical doctor right you don't claim to 243 00:10:11,059 --> 00:10:09,360 be a medical doctor about a medical 244 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:11,069 historian I'm just historian of science 245 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:17,490 so what you think not neural activity 246 00:10:22,220 --> 00:10:19,290 that produces a powerful experience 247 00:10:25,850 --> 00:10:22,230 people can get that from my Alaska from 248 00:10:27,350 --> 00:10:25,860 ecstasy from deep meditation and so on 249 00:10:29,059 --> 00:10:27,360 we know this you can get it from brain 250 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:29,069 stimulation you get it from oxygen 251 00:10:34,939 --> 00:10:32,490 deprivation I mean you think you seem to 252 00:10:37,670 --> 00:10:34,949 think it's something beyond that well 253 00:10:39,889 --> 00:10:37,680 here's where I would focus on is on the 254 00:10:43,009 --> 00:10:39,899 research on the science 255 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:43,019 I don't think peer review is a red 256 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:44,850 herring per se I think when you look 257 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:47,970 it's the best means we have right now in 258 00:10:55,610 --> 00:10:50,730 science for policing science finding out 259 00:10:58,519 --> 00:10:55,620 if people are doing good work I'll get 260 00:11:00,740 --> 00:10:58,529 to that okay so I'd say you're not a 261 00:11:03,829 --> 00:11:00,750 doctor so when we get into medical 262 00:11:05,660 --> 00:11:03,839 fields I like to look at doctors 263 00:11:06,730 --> 00:11:05,670 I like the near-death experience 264 00:11:10,389 --> 00:11:06,740 research from 265 00:11:12,639 --> 00:11:10,399 Jeff long radiation oncologist right so 266 00:11:15,250 --> 00:11:12,649 this is a guy who works with death and 267 00:11:17,310 --> 00:11:15,260 dying patients all the time he also 268 00:11:20,530 --> 00:11:17,320 happens to be a near-death experience 269 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:20,540 researcher compiled the largest database 270 00:11:26,170 --> 00:11:23,810 of near-death experiences analyzed it 271 00:11:30,130 --> 00:11:26,180 scientifically with the scientific 272 00:11:33,250 --> 00:11:30,140 survey and here's what he says I'll pull 273 00:11:36,850 --> 00:11:33,260 that up for you right now so I guess the 274 00:11:39,130 --> 00:11:36,860 question is for the average person who's 275 00:11:41,820 --> 00:11:39,140 trying to sort through this idea of 276 00:11:44,110 --> 00:11:41,830 near-death experience science research 277 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:44,120 how do they sort through it how do they 278 00:11:50,710 --> 00:11:47,450 know what research really holds up out 279 00:11:53,350 --> 00:11:50,720 there the key thing is to know a few of 280 00:11:55,570 --> 00:11:53,360 the consistently seen elements of 281 00:11:57,940 --> 00:11:55,580 near-death experience that are the 282 00:12:00,160 --> 00:11:57,950 strongest evidence for their reality for 283 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:00,170 example when you're under general 284 00:12:05,230 --> 00:12:02,450 anesthesia it should be impossible to 285 00:12:07,660 --> 00:12:05,240 have a lucid organized remembrance at 286 00:12:09,790 --> 00:12:07,670 that time in fact under anesthesia 287 00:12:11,620 --> 00:12:09,800 you're typically so far under with 288 00:12:12,910 --> 00:12:11,630 general anesthesia they often have to 289 00:12:14,949 --> 00:12:12,920 breathe for you I mean you're literally 290 00:12:18,250 --> 00:12:14,959 brain shut down to the level of the 291 00:12:20,230 --> 00:12:18,260 brainstem and at that point in time some 292 00:12:21,819 --> 00:12:20,240 people have a cardiac arrest their heart 293 00:12:22,630 --> 00:12:21,829 stops and of course that's very well 294 00:12:24,819 --> 00:12:22,640 documented 295 00:12:27,430 --> 00:12:24,829 they monitor people very carefully that 296 00:12:29,110 --> 00:12:27,440 are having general anesthesia so I have 297 00:12:31,389 --> 00:12:29,120 dozens and dozens of near-death 298 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:31,399 experiences that occurred under general 299 00:12:36,730 --> 00:12:33,890 anesthesia and at this time it should be 300 00:12:38,949 --> 00:12:36,740 if you will doubly impossible to have a 301 00:12:41,139 --> 00:12:38,959 conscious remembrance and yet they do 302 00:12:43,780 --> 00:12:41,149 have near-death experiences at this time 303 00:12:45,970 --> 00:12:43,790 and their typical near-death experiences 304 00:12:47,290 --> 00:12:45,980 they have the same elements and appear 305 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:47,300 to have them in the same order as 306 00:12:51,730 --> 00:12:49,250 near-death experiences occurring under 307 00:12:54,100 --> 00:12:51,740 all other circumstances and in fact a 308 00:12:55,750 --> 00:12:54,110 critical survey question I asked was 309 00:12:57,760 --> 00:12:55,760 what their level of consciousness and 310 00:13:00,250 --> 00:12:57,770 alertness during the experience was well 311 00:13:02,410 --> 00:13:00,260 even under general anesthetics under 312 00:13:04,389 --> 00:13:02,420 those powerful chemicals to produce 313 00:13:06,190 --> 00:13:04,399 sedation if they had a near-death 314 00:13:08,170 --> 00:13:06,200 experience under general anesthesia 315 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:08,180 their level of consciousness and 316 00:13:12,250 --> 00:13:10,490 alertness was identical to near-death 317 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:12,260 experience is occurring under all other 318 00:13:17,380 --> 00:13:14,930 circumstances there's absolutely no way 319 00:13:20,020 --> 00:13:17,390 the skeptics can explain that away it's 320 00:13:23,020 --> 00:13:20,030 impossible well we have a skeptic 321 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:23,030 you're explaining it away he's wrong not 322 00:13:27,220 --> 00:13:25,490 every single one he's wrong let's make 323 00:13:29,980 --> 00:13:27,230 sure we understand he is a medical 324 00:13:32,350 --> 00:13:29,990 doctor he is a full-time radiation 325 00:13:36,010 --> 00:13:32,360 oncologist he works with people who are 326 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:36,020 under anesthesia every day but it is 327 00:13:39,790 --> 00:13:38,090 wrong tell me tell me how you are tell 328 00:13:41,530 --> 00:13:39,800 me how your expertise would lead you to 329 00:13:44,470 --> 00:13:41,540 believe that he's wrong about his 330 00:13:48,190 --> 00:13:44,480 medical understanding of the state of 331 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:48,200 consciousness a small percentage of the 332 00:13:53,050 --> 00:13:50,450 population wind under general anesthesia 333 00:13:55,090 --> 00:13:53,060 they become aware of what's going on 334 00:13:57,760 --> 00:13:55,100 it's well known well-known I've 335 00:14:00,160 --> 00:13:57,770 interviewed in anesthesiologist more 336 00:14:02,740 --> 00:14:00,170 than one on this show so there you go 337 00:14:05,590 --> 00:14:02,750 that's it so not that does not explain 338 00:14:08,380 --> 00:14:05,600 it's a well-known phenomenon that that 339 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:08,390 they work around Alex you seem to be 340 00:14:11,980 --> 00:14:09,290 missing my point 341 00:14:14,350 --> 00:14:11,990 it isn't denying that people have 342 00:14:17,070 --> 00:14:14,360 powerful neural experiences under 343 00:14:20,950 --> 00:14:17,080 different conditions oxygen deprivation 344 00:14:24,150 --> 00:14:20,960 sleep deprivation they have these 345 00:14:26,980 --> 00:14:24,160 floating out-of-body experiences in the 346 00:14:29,310 --> 00:14:26,990 James winterice research with the pilots 347 00:14:32,230 --> 00:14:29,320 that are accelerated in centrifuges 348 00:14:34,570 --> 00:14:32,240 stimulating a part of the temporal lobe 349 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:34,580 during these epileptic great you're 350 00:14:36,490 --> 00:14:36,050 really making my points here so you're 351 00:14:40,410 --> 00:14:36,500 right 352 00:14:43,150 --> 00:14:40,420 that you can even replicate all of the 353 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:43,160 experiences that people report in NDEs 354 00:14:48,250 --> 00:14:46,250 through drugs through conditions through 355 00:14:49,990 --> 00:14:48,260 neural stimulation not true but you're 356 00:14:53,700 --> 00:14:50,000 still making you're still not unlike 357 00:14:56,740 --> 00:14:53,710 shows that a hundred percent of the 358 00:14:59,620 --> 00:14:56,750 experiences they have our neural related 359 00:15:03,450 --> 00:14:59,630 they're related to the brain now maybe 360 00:15:04,660 --> 00:15:03,460 you want to argue that at some point the 361 00:15:07,030 --> 00:15:04,670 consciousness 362 00:15:08,790 --> 00:15:07,040 lifts off the neurons and floats out 363 00:15:11,710 --> 00:15:08,800 into space is that what you're arguing 364 00:15:13,990 --> 00:15:11,720 I'm arguing that I'm just gonna repeat 365 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:14,000 to you what dr. long told me don't 366 00:15:17,740 --> 00:15:15,890 repeat to me what dr. lund says well 367 00:15:20,740 --> 00:15:17,750 tell me what you think do you think that 368 00:15:24,340 --> 00:15:20,750 the connectome or your memories or your 369 00:15:26,620 --> 00:15:24,350 thoughts flows off of the brain they're 370 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:26,630 no longer connected to the neural tissue 371 00:15:30,670 --> 00:15:28,730 and go somewhere else is that what you 372 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:30,680 think I'm happy to answer that you can 373 00:15:33,070 --> 00:15:31,970 grill me with all the questions but I 374 00:15:33,870 --> 00:15:33,080 didn't want to return to one thing 375 00:15:35,790 --> 00:15:33,880 because I think 376 00:15:39,330 --> 00:15:35,800 come on Alex we're having a cover sit 377 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:39,340 tell me what you think happened I mean 378 00:15:42,630 --> 00:15:40,930 let me close that window here we're 379 00:15:46,050 --> 00:15:42,640 getting me that's a great San Francisco 380 00:15:47,370 --> 00:15:46,060 sound we got to have that in there yes 381 00:15:49,410 --> 00:15:47,380 so what do you think what do you think 382 00:15:51,510 --> 00:15:49,420 happens I know you want to talked about 383 00:15:54,030 --> 00:15:51,520 red herring I think that's a red herring 384 00:15:57,960 --> 00:15:54,040 because again you're a science guy you 385 00:15:59,900 --> 00:15:57,970 know what so we can falsify paradigms we 386 00:16:03,270 --> 00:15:59,910 can falsify theories without 387 00:16:06,540 --> 00:16:03,280 substituting another theory so I'm not 388 00:16:08,940 --> 00:16:06,550 sure how consciousness works what I 389 00:16:11,940 --> 00:16:08,950 think the evidence strongly points to is 390 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:11,950 that our current model of consciousness 391 00:16:18,300 --> 00:16:15,370 being 100% tied to neural activity 392 00:16:20,460 --> 00:16:18,310 doesn't fit and that's where I'd return 393 00:16:22,350 --> 00:16:20,470 you to dr. Long's statement because I 394 00:16:24,980 --> 00:16:22,360 think there's some subtle points in 395 00:16:27,270 --> 00:16:24,990 there that folks who are hell-bent on 396 00:16:29,190 --> 00:16:27,280 dismissing near-death experience data 397 00:16:33,060 --> 00:16:29,200 miss so do you remember the point where 398 00:16:35,370 --> 00:16:33,070 he says that not only are these people 399 00:16:38,310 --> 00:16:35,380 having this experience under general 400 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:38,320 anesthesia but their experience is 401 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:40,930 consistent with other people that are 402 00:16:46,470 --> 00:16:43,410 having it under different medical 403 00:16:48,810 --> 00:16:46,480 situations structured the same way with 404 00:16:50,070 --> 00:16:48,820 the same neural chemistry but Michael 405 00:16:52,380 --> 00:16:50,080 let me just finish let me just finish my 406 00:16:54,900 --> 00:16:52,390 point because you're really not you're 407 00:16:57,650 --> 00:16:54,910 really not I just you're just not quite 408 00:16:59,850 --> 00:16:57,660 correct there because what we know from 409 00:17:02,400 --> 00:16:59,860 neuroscience what neuroscientist tells 410 00:17:04,460 --> 00:17:02,410 us it's the basics is that different 411 00:17:06,660 --> 00:17:04,470 medical conditions different 412 00:17:08,370 --> 00:17:06,670 physiological conditions create 413 00:17:11,870 --> 00:17:08,380 different situations in the brain like 414 00:17:15,360 --> 00:17:11,880 you mentioned the similar experiences 415 00:17:17,550 --> 00:17:15,370 but they shouldn't be producing the 416 00:17:19,650 --> 00:17:17,560 people that describe heaven they're 417 00:17:22,530 --> 00:17:19,660 different heavens if they were actually 418 00:17:24,900 --> 00:17:22,540 going to a real place the place should 419 00:17:27,270 --> 00:17:24,910 look the same but that doesn't it varies 420 00:17:34,580 --> 00:17:27,280 considerably so how do you explain that 421 00:17:37,350 --> 00:17:34,590 mr. nan skeptic - not if you've got 422 00:17:39,030 --> 00:17:37,360 actual place it should look to say why 423 00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:39,040 doesn't it look the same you got me on 424 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:42,370 that I cannot explain that let me see 425 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:44,050 the same people you know Christians see 426 00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:46,330 Jesus but other words that are not quick 427 00:17:51,009 --> 00:17:48,370 they don't see Jesus 428 00:17:52,629 --> 00:17:51,019 you got me you got me on that too that's 429 00:17:55,210 --> 00:17:52,639 a that's a question I don't have an 430 00:17:59,499 --> 00:17:55,220 answer for it well okay so one answer is 431 00:18:01,779 --> 00:17:59,509 that do you want to I want to I want to 432 00:18:03,999 --> 00:18:01,789 get another researcher to the table 433 00:18:06,909 --> 00:18:04,009 because in your book one of the points 434 00:18:09,039 --> 00:18:06,919 you make is okay transformative power 435 00:18:10,690 --> 00:18:09,049 near-death experiences I'm not denying 436 00:18:12,430 --> 00:18:10,700 that they're transformed but that's not 437 00:18:16,110 --> 00:18:12,440 that's not what her clip says but her 438 00:18:18,159 --> 00:18:16,120 Clips speaks to specifically 439 00:18:21,820 --> 00:18:18,169 specifically this is right out of your 440 00:18:23,980 --> 00:18:21,830 book which it is you make the point that 441 00:18:27,430 --> 00:18:23,990 hey people when they're resuscitated 442 00:18:29,169 --> 00:18:27,440 they claim to have seen things that they 443 00:18:31,330 --> 00:18:29,179 shouldn't be able to see well they've 444 00:18:34,570 --> 00:18:31,340 seen it on TV they make it up here's a 445 00:18:36,820 --> 00:18:34,580 researcher who asked that question with 446 00:18:39,850 --> 00:18:36,830 the control group I had then patients 447 00:18:41,889 --> 00:18:39,860 who'd been successfully resuscitated but 448 00:18:43,539 --> 00:18:41,899 they didn't have a near-death experience 449 00:18:45,940 --> 00:18:43,549 so they didn't have the antibody 450 00:18:48,430 --> 00:18:45,950 component and I asked them if they could 451 00:18:51,879 --> 00:18:48,440 describe what they thought that we had 452 00:18:53,950 --> 00:18:51,889 done to them and they were like what do 453 00:18:59,799 --> 00:18:53,960 you mean I don't I was dead I don't 454 00:19:03,220 --> 00:18:59,809 remember anything right I have no idea 455 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:03,230 what you did to me at all like and the 456 00:19:07,690 --> 00:19:05,330 majority of them couldn't even guess 457 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:07,700 they couldn't make a guess as to what 458 00:19:12,999 --> 00:19:10,129 we'd done and then a few of them then 459 00:19:15,249 --> 00:19:13,009 did make a guess and it was based on TV 460 00:19:17,379 --> 00:19:15,259 Hospital dramas that they've been 461 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:17,389 watching and what I found is that there 462 00:19:21,909 --> 00:19:19,610 were errors and misconceptions in what 463 00:19:24,220 --> 00:19:21,919 they thought we had done to them and so 464 00:19:26,919 --> 00:19:24,230 some of them thought that they had been 465 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:26,929 DC shocked with the paddles and they 466 00:19:31,869 --> 00:19:28,730 hadn't those people had just had the 467 00:19:34,149 --> 00:19:31,879 resuscitation the CPR and drugs 468 00:19:37,269 --> 00:19:34,159 administered such as adrenaline or 469 00:19:40,570 --> 00:19:37,279 noradrenaline and then some of them made 470 00:19:42,820 --> 00:19:40,580 educated guesses but the police where 471 00:19:45,310 --> 00:19:42,830 they thought that we put the paddles on 472 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:45,320 to their body was completely erroneous 473 00:19:51,279 --> 00:19:49,610 it was wrong it was incorrect you know 474 00:19:54,909 --> 00:19:51,289 this is great stuff 475 00:19:57,340 --> 00:19:54,919 yeah so it just you know it just goes to 476 00:20:00,159 --> 00:19:57,350 show that the people who did report the 477 00:20:01,450 --> 00:20:00,169 near-death experience described their 478 00:20:03,220 --> 00:20:01,460 experience with 479 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:03,230 he receiver as the control group would 480 00:20:09,550 --> 00:20:05,810 wince accurate and they most of them 481 00:20:12,430 --> 00:20:09,560 couldn't even hazard a guess okay so 482 00:20:15,910 --> 00:20:12,440 first of all full disclosure you didn't 483 00:20:18,820 --> 00:20:15,920 know about that research I know about 484 00:20:21,430 --> 00:20:18,830 similar research that is that what are 485 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:21,440 the objective criteria by which they 486 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:23,570 decide whether a narrative account is a 487 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:27,170 hit or a miss of what they did how many 488 00:20:31,540 --> 00:20:29,210 details have to get correct for you to 489 00:20:33,700 --> 00:20:31,550 say yes that's accurate for what we were 490 00:20:35,290 --> 00:20:33,710 doing - you know you must have gotten 491 00:20:38,710 --> 00:20:35,300 that from a TV drama because that's not 492 00:20:43,660 --> 00:20:41,170 oh no no this is super in science you 493 00:20:45,850 --> 00:20:43,670 have to operationally slide your back to 494 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:45,860 science she wrote and published a 495 00:20:51,610 --> 00:20:49,730 peer-reviewed paper what was the 496 00:20:54,460 --> 00:20:51,620 criteria for deciding if a narrative was 497 00:20:56,110 --> 00:20:54,470 a hit well the the narrative was the 498 00:20:58,630 --> 00:20:56,120 survey that they did which was a 499 00:21:00,300 --> 00:20:58,640 professional scientific survey right do 500 00:21:02,410 --> 00:21:00,310 you understand I mean I don't want to 501 00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:02,420 sound condescending of course you 502 00:21:06,910 --> 00:21:04,370 understand that medical surveys are 503 00:21:08,890 --> 00:21:06,920 really the backbone of science so if 504 00:21:10,660 --> 00:21:08,900 someone takes a medication we go in and 505 00:21:11,830 --> 00:21:10,670 we ask him how did you feel you know 506 00:21:13,990 --> 00:21:11,840 it's supposed to help you with the pain 507 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:14,000 is your pain reduced how does this what 508 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:16,010 is this sensation so people were calling 509 00:21:21,550 --> 00:21:18,530 experience and calling things are a part 510 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:21,560 of it so she did of your question if the 511 00:21:27,700 --> 00:21:23,810 person is floating up of the ceiling and 512 00:21:29,500 --> 00:21:27,710 looking down at the operating table or 513 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:29,510 whatever right and that they're getting 514 00:21:34,330 --> 00:21:32,450 details beyond what somebody would from 515 00:21:35,770 --> 00:21:34,340 their imagination okay you surely know 516 00:21:37,620 --> 00:21:35,780 about the experiment where this has 517 00:21:39,700 --> 00:21:37,630 already been done where they set up 518 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:39,710 platforms up by the ceiling with 519 00:21:43,750 --> 00:21:41,810 photographs pacing up such that if 520 00:21:45,670 --> 00:21:43,760 somebody does this in an ER you're 521 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:45,680 referring to dr. Sam Parr Nia who is a 522 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:49,850 colleague and they've never had any okay 523 00:21:54,130 --> 00:21:51,050 here I not but again you're 524 00:21:56,110 --> 00:21:54,140 misrepresenting that remark but the more 525 00:21:59,160 --> 00:21:56,120 you hone down and fine-tune the 526 00:22:03,070 --> 00:21:59,170 objective exact opposite is true the 527 00:22:05,140 --> 00:22:03,080 opposites just like with ESP as sue 528 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:05,150 black Murrow would point always pointed 529 00:22:09,610 --> 00:22:07,850 out also with nd ease the tiger you make 530 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:09,620 the controls the weak or the effect gets 531 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:12,170 I don't think that's true at all in as a 532 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:14,090 matter of fact that's kind of my main 533 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:14,930 point that I'm 534 00:22:20,050 --> 00:22:17,570 comin at you with is I just don't think 535 00:22:22,150 --> 00:22:20,060 you've fairly looked at the near-death 536 00:22:24,220 --> 00:22:22,160 experience research like you just 537 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:24,230 referenced dr. Sam Vanya been on the 538 00:22:29,140 --> 00:22:26,810 show multiple times dr. penny Sartori 539 00:22:30,580 --> 00:22:29,150 been on the show multiple times skeptics 540 00:22:33,460 --> 00:22:30,590 of near-death experience science 541 00:22:37,690 --> 00:22:33,470 interviewed many of them 542 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:37,700 Sam porneia and dr. penny Sartori wrong 543 00:22:43,090 --> 00:22:41,090 with dr. Peter fennec were a group that 544 00:22:46,180 --> 00:22:43,100 has researched together they started out 545 00:22:48,210 --> 00:22:46,190 in the UK all this different stuff dr. 546 00:22:52,360 --> 00:22:48,220 Sam Varney is one of the leading experts 547 00:22:56,140 --> 00:22:52,370 on resuscitation so again these are 548 00:22:58,180 --> 00:22:56,150 medical experts their conclusions matter 549 00:23:01,200 --> 00:22:58,190 they matter more than someone just 550 00:23:05,490 --> 00:23:01,210 casually looking at it like our Nia's 551 00:23:09,010 --> 00:23:05,500 conclusion is exactly consistent with 552 00:23:12,390 --> 00:23:09,020 dr. penny Sartori dr. Peter fennec dr. 553 00:23:14,860 --> 00:23:12,400 jeff murray near-death experience 554 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:14,870 researcher has come to the same 555 00:23:19,620 --> 00:23:17,930 conclusion what they either suggest that 556 00:23:22,990 --> 00:23:19,630 contrary 557 00:23:25,540 --> 00:23:23,000 no one's ever reported seen one of the 558 00:23:27,310 --> 00:23:25,550 photographs accurately never not one so 559 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:27,320 what are you talking about we can talk 560 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:29,570 about the conclusions that the guy has 561 00:23:33,250 --> 00:23:31,610 from his research and you have to be 562 00:23:34,810 --> 00:23:33,260 careful with this because as we talked 563 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:34,820 about before and we can talk about again 564 00:23:40,780 --> 00:23:38,090 you you can't misrepresent someone's 565 00:23:43,030 --> 00:23:40,790 position you can pick apart their 566 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:43,040 research and say why you think it's 567 00:23:46,210 --> 00:23:44,810 wrong but you can't say they're saying 568 00:23:52,950 --> 00:23:46,220 one thing when they're saying another 569 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:52,960 that I can't take your book and say oh I 570 00:23:59,990 --> 00:23:56,170 shall give you an example 571 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:00,000 okay you remember this one right yeah so 572 00:24:06,540 --> 00:24:03,810 dr. PIM van Lommel writes this paper 573 00:24:13,470 --> 00:24:06,550 Michael Shermer Scientific American says 574 00:24:18,090 --> 00:24:13,480 hey this thing strikes a blow against ya 575 00:24:21,750 --> 00:24:18,100 in my opinion no you can't you can't 576 00:24:27,110 --> 00:24:21,760 only the guy when you have when you 577 00:24:34,950 --> 00:24:30,240 saying that he thinks that it supports 578 00:24:36,780 --> 00:24:34,960 the you know the monist position of only 579 00:24:39,450 --> 00:24:36,790 brain and oh my I didn't say that I said 580 00:24:40,950 --> 00:24:39,460 that's my opinion no what you said is 581 00:24:43,830 --> 00:24:40,960 right up on the screen 582 00:24:48,260 --> 00:24:43,840 you read that this study delivers a blow 583 00:24:50,790 --> 00:24:48,270 to the idea that mind every separate 584 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:50,800 delivers a blow yeah that's right that 585 00:24:55,470 --> 00:24:53,170 would be like me saying your book 586 00:24:59,820 --> 00:24:55,480 heavens and earth that heavens on earth 587 00:25:02,490 --> 00:24:59,830 delivers a blow against the neurological 588 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:02,500 model that consciousness is typing yeah 589 00:25:06,510 --> 00:25:04,450 no I would be could do that 590 00:25:10,470 --> 00:25:06,520 I could do that I could do that but I 591 00:25:13,140 --> 00:25:10,480 would be misrepresenting its position I 592 00:25:14,100 --> 00:25:13,150 wouldn't be fair to my audience I if I 593 00:25:17,010 --> 00:25:14,110 told my audience 594 00:25:18,690 --> 00:25:17,020 hey Michael Shermer thinks that's not 595 00:25:21,390 --> 00:25:18,700 the case but I think that's the case 596 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:21,400 that's one thing but to say that his 597 00:25:25,770 --> 00:25:23,890 book without putting into context 598 00:25:27,900 --> 00:25:25,780 delivers appalled and and the evidence 599 00:25:30,090 --> 00:25:27,910 of this is clear I mean you have dr. 600 00:25:33,210 --> 00:25:30,100 Pinto mama'll coming at you saying hey 601 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:33,220 this is this is completely wrong my 602 00:25:38,550 --> 00:25:35,530 research argues exactly the opposite but 603 00:25:40,770 --> 00:25:38,560 I don't want to argue for that but I 604 00:25:42,900 --> 00:25:40,780 think his research points in the 605 00:25:45,630 --> 00:25:42,910 opposite direction it does not point to 606 00:25:48,150 --> 00:25:45,640 consciousness beyond lies it points to 607 00:25:51,510 --> 00:25:48,160 powerful neurological experiences that 608 00:25:54,180 --> 00:25:51,520 people misrepresent as floating off into 609 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:54,190 the ether somewhere so let's get at that 610 00:25:57,360 --> 00:25:55,930 lets tell me what you think in your 611 00:25:59,910 --> 00:25:57,370 opinion since you studied this 612 00:26:03,090 --> 00:25:59,920 extensively when the person is up by the 613 00:26:05,940 --> 00:26:03,100 ceiling looking down what is the medium 614 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:05,950 or platform that olds the thoughts and 615 00:26:09,460 --> 00:26:07,930 memories and and how do you see 616 00:26:11,890 --> 00:26:09,470 something without a with 617 00:26:14,950 --> 00:26:11,900 visual apparatus without afraid how does 618 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:14,960 an ethereal spirit see anything again 619 00:26:19,990 --> 00:26:17,450 and I repeat myself but I really feel 620 00:26:24,210 --> 00:26:20,000 strongly about this is that I don't 621 00:26:27,190 --> 00:26:24,220 think we have to to falsify the existing 622 00:26:29,830 --> 00:26:27,200 model of mind equals brain and we should 623 00:26:32,470 --> 00:26:29,840 never look beyond that is a huge step 624 00:26:34,299 --> 00:26:32,480 and to take that step allows us to then 625 00:26:35,830 --> 00:26:34,309 begin to answer those questions I don't 626 00:26:37,899 --> 00:26:35,840 think we have to have those questions 627 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:37,909 answered in order to say this is what 628 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:40,010 the data is telling us this is what the 629 00:26:46,470 --> 00:26:44,090 scientists are telling us it's clear 630 00:26:49,270 --> 00:26:46,480 from this conversation and the books and 631 00:26:51,820 --> 00:26:49,280 papers you're showing me that you and 632 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:51,830 these other researchers definitely think 633 00:26:56,890 --> 00:26:54,530 this is evidence of the continuation of 634 00:26:57,730 --> 00:26:56,900 consciousness all right so curious minds 635 00:26:59,500 --> 00:26:57,740 want to know 636 00:27:04,270 --> 00:26:59,510 how does consciousness continue without 637 00:27:06,250 --> 00:27:04,280 a brain but again that's the question 638 00:27:09,039 --> 00:27:06,260 that's the question we need a man on the 639 00:27:13,090 --> 00:27:09,049 moon effort to answer but you know the 640 00:27:14,830 --> 00:27:13,100 one point that you'd make the nose okay 641 00:27:15,669 --> 00:27:14,840 right that's right no one knows it it's 642 00:27:17,289 --> 00:27:15,679 a mystery 643 00:27:19,659 --> 00:27:17,299 so one thing that isn't in this room 644 00:27:21,789 --> 00:27:19,669 that I think we can't miss repeat go 645 00:27:24,220 --> 00:27:21,799 ahead I'm so mera logical activity or 646 00:27:27,159 --> 00:27:24,230 it's neurological activity and something 647 00:27:30,039 --> 00:27:27,169 else okay so I compiled a lot of 648 00:27:32,620 --> 00:27:30,049 evidence that it and not just with the 649 00:27:34,930 --> 00:27:32,630 nbe say in my chapter with Deepak Chopra 650 00:27:37,090 --> 00:27:34,940 he thinks consciousness continues beyond 651 00:27:39,310 --> 00:27:37,100 death not because it floats off the 652 00:27:41,799 --> 00:27:39,320 brain and is hovering somewhere else but 653 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:41,809 because consciousness is well I'll use 654 00:27:46,690 --> 00:27:44,570 his words the the ontological primitive 655 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:46,700 it is the ground of all being you can't 656 00:27:51,100 --> 00:27:48,530 get underneath consciousness you can't 657 00:27:54,100 --> 00:27:51,110 drill into the atom down to strings or 658 00:27:56,740 --> 00:27:54,110 quarks and find consciousness it is in a 659 00:28:00,880 --> 00:27:56,750 sort of pan psychism way it's everywhere 660 00:28:04,060 --> 00:28:00,890 and so when your conscious mind lifts 661 00:28:05,830 --> 00:28:04,070 off the the brain it doesn't go anywhere 662 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:05,840 it's just it's just still part of 663 00:28:09,399 --> 00:28:07,250 consciousness that's pervasive 664 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:09,409 throughout the universe so it's the same 665 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:11,450 question with epochs that I say to him 666 00:28:15,820 --> 00:28:13,610 well what's more likely that the 667 00:28:18,730 --> 00:28:15,830 research we have in Neurology points to 668 00:28:21,159 --> 00:28:18,740 the brain the mind equals the brain and 669 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:21,169 nothing more or the mind equals the 670 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:22,970 brain and something more and 671 00:28:28,060 --> 00:28:25,490 my opinion it the evidence points to 672 00:28:30,100 --> 00:28:28,070 just brain in his opinion if there's 673 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:30,110 enough to go in the other direction okay 674 00:28:34,120 --> 00:28:32,330 so we don't have a part of the problem 675 00:28:35,289 --> 00:28:34,130 you and I and everybody else has is we 676 00:28:38,860 --> 00:28:35,299 don't have a cogent theory of 677 00:28:40,659 --> 00:28:38,870 consciousness we don't know how brains 678 00:28:43,419 --> 00:28:40,669 produce what we're doing right now that 679 00:28:45,940 --> 00:28:43,429 is experiencing life and so without that 680 00:28:48,010 --> 00:28:45,950 theory of consciousness we're not going 681 00:28:49,990 --> 00:28:48,020 to have a cogent theory of altered 682 00:28:52,330 --> 00:28:50,000 states of consciousness so we have a 683 00:28:54,220 --> 00:28:52,340 collection of of accounts and 684 00:28:55,750 --> 00:28:54,230 experiments of unusual things that 685 00:28:58,990 --> 00:28:55,760 happen not just endings 686 00:29:00,490 --> 00:28:59,000 there's there's many many more unusual I 687 00:29:02,049 --> 00:29:00,500 have a whole chapter on anomalous 688 00:29:05,020 --> 00:29:02,059 psychological experiences that people 689 00:29:07,060 --> 00:29:05,030 have including my own and you know I've 690 00:29:09,159 --> 00:29:07,070 written about you know the sense 691 00:29:12,220 --> 00:29:09,169 presence that people have Alpine 692 00:29:13,930 --> 00:29:12,230 climbers and solo sailors and solo 693 00:29:15,789 --> 00:29:13,940 fliers and so on with a sense of 694 00:29:17,620 --> 00:29:15,799 presence in the room very powerful 695 00:29:19,330 --> 00:29:17,630 okay there's whole books on anomalous 696 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:19,340 psychological experiences like Stanley 697 00:29:23,350 --> 00:29:21,770 Creek their studies I know about this 698 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:23,360 research the question is what does it 699 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:25,010 represent well we don't know for sure 700 00:29:28,450 --> 00:29:26,210 because we don't understand 701 00:29:30,039 --> 00:29:28,460 consciousness yet so all we can do at 702 00:29:34,029 --> 00:29:30,049 this point and say well in my opinion 703 00:29:36,399 --> 00:29:34,039 the lines of evidence all point to no 704 00:29:38,289 --> 00:29:36,409 brain no mind but there's enough 705 00:29:39,940 --> 00:29:38,299 anomalous weird things and we don't have 706 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:39,950 a good theory of consciousness that it 707 00:29:43,390 --> 00:29:41,690 allows you and others say well no I 708 00:29:45,310 --> 00:29:43,400 think I'm going to I think I'm going to 709 00:29:47,620 --> 00:29:45,320 say it can go this other way and that 710 00:29:50,350 --> 00:29:47,630 consciousness survives death okay maybe 711 00:29:52,659 --> 00:29:50,360 on that last part I don't know that 712 00:29:53,770 --> 00:29:52,669 that's really the direction where things 713 00:29:55,930 --> 00:29:53,780 are going you know the last time we 714 00:29:58,770 --> 00:29:55,940 talked to you a couple years ago one of 715 00:30:02,470 --> 00:29:58,780 the guys you brought up on your team was 716 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:02,480 dr. Krystof coke right I got I've spoken 717 00:30:08,159 --> 00:30:04,970 to interviewed on this show hey man he's 718 00:30:11,380 --> 00:30:08,169 moved over he switched nurse alright not 719 00:30:13,299 --> 00:30:11,390 inside okay sort of moved over the 720 00:30:15,039 --> 00:30:13,309 position it has shifted these guys are 721 00:30:16,899 --> 00:30:15,049 no longer holding to the mind equals 722 00:30:18,010 --> 00:30:16,909 brain thing you know another clip I was 723 00:30:20,260 --> 00:30:18,020 going to play for you better put them 724 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:20,270 about it's very nice to do it but if in 725 00:30:25,570 --> 00:30:22,370 Deepak says you need a brain well hold 726 00:30:27,730 --> 00:30:25,580 on Sam I could play for you the clip of 727 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:27,740 Sam Harris and David Chalmers right so 728 00:30:31,270 --> 00:30:29,450 Sam Harris I don't think much of Sam 729 00:30:32,889 --> 00:30:31,280 Harris but he's a name everybody knows 730 00:30:35,470 --> 00:30:32,899 David Chalmers one of the leading 731 00:30:36,910 --> 00:30:35,480 researchers in consciousness for a 732 00:30:40,570 --> 00:30:36,920 number of years and there 733 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:40,580 are talking they say you know Dan 734 00:30:44,260 --> 00:30:42,530 Dennett you know the consciousness is an 735 00:30:46,990 --> 00:30:44,270 illusion come on you don't really think 736 00:30:49,510 --> 00:30:47,000 he believes that do you I mean we're not 737 00:30:51,730 --> 00:30:49,520 still stuck there right so this idea 738 00:30:54,490 --> 00:30:51,740 that you're putting for us this kind of 739 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:54,500 militant materialism mind equals brain 740 00:30:59,440 --> 00:30:56,810 we've moved past that all the bleeding 741 00:31:03,070 --> 00:30:59,450 players have moved past that Michael 742 00:31:05,590 --> 00:31:03,080 that's just off coke admit has moved 743 00:31:07,810 --> 00:31:05,600 past it David Chalmers has moved past it 744 00:31:11,710 --> 00:31:07,820 Sam has has moved past it who are you 745 00:31:14,380 --> 00:31:11,720 gonna point to I know I know Sam quite 746 00:31:16,510 --> 00:31:14,390 well he hasn't moved past anything what 747 00:31:18,670 --> 00:31:16,520 are you talking about he's he's not a 748 00:31:22,630 --> 00:31:18,680 strict materialist he's not a strict 749 00:31:25,900 --> 00:31:22,640 mind equals brain guy no he's totally in 750 00:31:28,870 --> 00:31:25,910 the pan psychism spirituality something 751 00:31:31,090 --> 00:31:28,880 other than strict mind hell's brain 752 00:31:33,580 --> 00:31:31,100 materialism did a public event together 753 00:31:35,350 --> 00:31:33,590 in Austin that he's been opposed in a 754 00:31:38,650 --> 00:31:35,360 week or two that you can listen to where 755 00:31:40,150 --> 00:31:38,660 you know he you know we asked them bring 756 00:31:41,740 --> 00:31:40,160 him on I'll have both you guys on at the 757 00:31:44,790 --> 00:31:41,750 same time and I'll invite the people 758 00:31:46,510 --> 00:31:44,800 that got be it but anyway all right so 759 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:46,520 obviously we're gonna have to agree to 760 00:31:51,730 --> 00:31:49,370 disagree on this point and it's not 761 00:31:54,610 --> 00:31:51,740 gonna be resolved you know today you 762 00:31:56,050 --> 00:31:54,620 know it's a hard problem and you know 763 00:31:58,090 --> 00:31:56,060 that's why Chalmers calls it the heart 764 00:32:01,200 --> 00:31:58,100 problem I'm not sure I've talked to 765 00:32:04,450 --> 00:32:01,210 Peter about this who's a good friend it 766 00:32:07,060 --> 00:32:04,460 Steve thinks it may not be a soluble 767 00:32:10,420 --> 00:32:07,070 problem because what we're phrasing it 768 00:32:12,820 --> 00:32:10,430 the wrong way we're asking science to do 769 00:32:14,350 --> 00:32:12,830 something they can't do in terms of you 770 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:14,360 know what first of all what do you even 771 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:16,490 mean by consciousness now like what Sam 772 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:18,650 means I think in most people would agree 773 00:32:23,140 --> 00:32:21,050 is what is like to be something like 774 00:32:25,180 --> 00:32:23,150 what it's like to be a bat or what it's 775 00:32:27,250 --> 00:32:25,190 like to be a dolphin now on stage we 776 00:32:30,340 --> 00:32:27,260 kind of disagreed on on the next point 777 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:30,350 which is in my opinion if to find out 778 00:32:34,660 --> 00:32:32,450 what it's like to be a dolphin say you 779 00:32:37,630 --> 00:32:34,670 know I strapped on flippers and I put on 780 00:32:41,590 --> 00:32:37,640 some sonar equipment and I reprogram my 781 00:32:44,710 --> 00:32:41,600 brain to process sonar instead of visual 782 00:32:47,290 --> 00:32:44,720 and whatever instead of human apparatus 783 00:32:50,410 --> 00:32:47,300 and I just kept morphine a lot and hold 784 00:32:52,510 --> 00:32:50,420 my breath for 10 minutes and it's 785 00:32:54,910 --> 00:32:52,520 and so on at some point I would just be 786 00:32:56,470 --> 00:32:54,920 a dolphin and I wouldn't even be I 787 00:32:58,390 --> 00:32:56,480 wouldn't even know that I was a human 788 00:33:00,550 --> 00:32:58,400 asking what it's like to be a dolphin 789 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:00,560 now Sam disagrees with that so I'm not 790 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:01,970 sure actually what that means in terms 791 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:03,770 of your pants I don't think it's that 792 00:33:10,060 --> 00:33:06,290 but but that what it's like to be 793 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:10,070 something to get at that you have to 794 00:33:13,780 --> 00:33:12,290 kind of be that you know what it's like 795 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:13,790 to be a glass of water you know deep 796 00:33:17,830 --> 00:33:16,010 inside is no but the glass of water is 797 00:33:20,020 --> 00:33:17,840 is conscious it's just very simple 798 00:33:21,550 --> 00:33:20,030 consciousness and you know what it's 799 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:21,560 like to be a dog I can kind of envision 800 00:33:26,790 --> 00:33:24,530 what it's like to be a dog but it's hard 801 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:26,800 to do because I'm so trapped in my own 802 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:30,530 human brain all right so you know we 803 00:33:34,780 --> 00:33:33,170 focused a lot on this extended 804 00:33:38,020 --> 00:33:34,790 consciousness and consciousness thing 805 00:33:40,150 --> 00:33:38,030 what are some of the other key findings 806 00:33:42,430 --> 00:33:40,160 or points that you were trying to get 807 00:33:45,850 --> 00:33:42,440 across in the book heavens on earth 808 00:33:47,890 --> 00:33:45,860 because you you do have its we did focus 809 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:47,900 on a small part of it what else do 810 00:33:50,500 --> 00:33:49,250 people need to know like even even at 811 00:33:52,300 --> 00:33:50,510 the very beginning I kind of pulled you 812 00:33:54,220 --> 00:33:52,310 off this thing of the history of heaven 813 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:54,230 which i think is an interesting point 814 00:33:58,660 --> 00:33:56,930 well from the very beginning we can't 815 00:34:00,820 --> 00:33:58,670 even imagine what it's like to be dead 816 00:34:03,340 --> 00:34:00,830 because to imagine something you have to 817 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:03,350 be alive in conscious so it's like 818 00:34:08,590 --> 00:34:05,930 imagine being under general anesthesia 819 00:34:10,899 --> 00:34:08,600 you can't imagine because imagine 820 00:34:12,930 --> 00:34:10,909 something you have to be awake alright 821 00:34:15,700 --> 00:34:12,940 so unless you have this condition where 822 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:15,710 you wake up at under anesthesia and 823 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:17,810 you're aware but you can't move and it's 824 00:34:21,430 --> 00:34:19,130 terrifying and all that but I'm not 825 00:34:23,860 --> 00:34:21,440 talking about that all's it is is you 826 00:34:25,300 --> 00:34:23,870 know boom boom lights out and then you 827 00:34:26,950 --> 00:34:25,310 wake up and you have no sense of how 828 00:34:29,260 --> 00:34:26,960 much time is gone and so on it's just 829 00:34:31,750 --> 00:34:29,270 yeah you can t we don't have the words 830 00:34:34,240 --> 00:34:31,760 describe it darkness nothing emptiness 831 00:34:35,919 --> 00:34:34,250 and so you know to ask them well where 832 00:34:39,130 --> 00:34:35,929 do you go and at the you know after 833 00:34:41,139 --> 00:34:39,140 death in you know the same place you 834 00:34:41,740 --> 00:34:41,149 were before you were born you just don't 835 00:34:43,690 --> 00:34:41,750 exist 836 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:43,700 well I can't conceive of what that would 837 00:34:47,980 --> 00:34:45,370 be like it's it's literally 838 00:34:50,500 --> 00:34:47,990 inconceivable so this sets up something 839 00:34:52,780 --> 00:34:50,510 of a paradox I cannot conceive of not 840 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:52,790 being alive and yet I see death all 841 00:34:57,070 --> 00:34:55,010 around and the hundred billion people 842 00:34:59,680 --> 00:34:57,080 that lived and died before us are gone 843 00:35:01,390 --> 00:34:59,690 and they've never come back short of the 844 00:35:03,670 --> 00:35:01,400 handful of near-death experience that 845 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:03,680 things are the claims of resurrection of 846 00:35:08,290 --> 00:35:04,010 Jesus 847 00:35:11,140 --> 00:35:08,300 things like that or in the case of you 848 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:11,150 know Hinduism reincarnation okay so I 849 00:35:16,090 --> 00:35:12,890 mean you're focused on nve's but there's 850 00:35:17,710 --> 00:35:16,100 lots of other versions of this that have 851 00:35:19,150 --> 00:35:17,720 nothing to do with that and and the 852 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:19,160 people believe the strongly as you do 853 00:35:25,930 --> 00:35:21,410 you know that something continues after 854 00:35:28,420 --> 00:35:25,940 conscious okay in my book I conclude 855 00:35:30,070 --> 00:35:28,430 that no one knows including me I don't 856 00:35:32,410 --> 00:35:30,080 know that there's no afterlife I don't 857 00:35:34,750 --> 00:35:32,420 know that you know when I close my eyes 858 00:35:37,420 --> 00:35:34,760 for the final time I won't wake up in 859 00:35:39,310 --> 00:35:37,430 some place and there's my friends Carl 860 00:35:42,370 --> 00:35:39,320 Sagan and Christopher Hitchens and 861 00:35:44,050 --> 00:35:42,380 Stephen Jay Gould and my parents and you 862 00:35:45,970 --> 00:35:44,060 know people that I have known and loved 863 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:45,980 and are gone maybe they're gonna be 864 00:35:49,300 --> 00:35:47,570 somewhere and I'm gonna be there with 865 00:35:52,630 --> 00:35:49,310 them I'm good with that 866 00:35:54,460 --> 00:35:52,640 I think I find him quoting Christopher 867 00:35:56,620 --> 00:35:54,470 Hitchens description of the Christian 868 00:35:58,480 --> 00:35:56,630 heaven and celestial North Korea you 869 00:36:00,310 --> 00:35:58,490 know we you have this dictator that 870 00:36:01,660 --> 00:36:00,320 knows all your thoughts and controls 871 00:36:03,850 --> 00:36:01,670 everything and you're there to worship 872 00:36:05,950 --> 00:36:03,860 you know the dear leader that doesn't 873 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:05,960 sound very heavenly to me but you know 874 00:36:09,820 --> 00:36:08,690 his point is that what are we talking 875 00:36:12,250 --> 00:36:09,830 about when we're talking about the 876 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:12,260 continuation off into someplace else so 877 00:36:16,540 --> 00:36:14,690 this is not a light problem you know 878 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:16,550 with Christian groups for example I said 879 00:36:21,340 --> 00:36:19,850 well when I'm when I die and I'm reborn 880 00:36:24,100 --> 00:36:21,350 I mean I'm a Christian so I'm in heaven 881 00:36:26,500 --> 00:36:24,110 with Jesus what's up there is it this 882 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:26,510 physical body and some of them go yeah 883 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:28,490 yeah yeah like Jesus was physically 884 00:36:34,270 --> 00:36:31,610 resurrected the empty tomb the tomb is 885 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:34,280 empty so his body is not just like it 886 00:36:38,230 --> 00:36:36,170 with your examples of NDE 887 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:38,240 consciousness lifts off the brain and 888 00:36:42,730 --> 00:36:40,130 floats off somewhere no for Christians 889 00:36:45,430 --> 00:36:42,740 Jesus you know left the tomb the empty 890 00:36:47,590 --> 00:36:45,440 tomb so the physical resurrection of the 891 00:36:52,510 --> 00:36:47,600 whole body and brain is what goes 892 00:36:54,580 --> 00:36:52,520 together for some sex now to that I say 893 00:36:56,260 --> 00:36:54,590 well how old am I then 894 00:36:58,180 --> 00:36:56,270 well you're 30 because that's the age 895 00:37:00,670 --> 00:36:58,190 Jesus was when he was crucified he was 896 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:00,680 thirty that's like well I'm 63 now so 897 00:37:05,170 --> 00:37:03,530 what happened to the 33 years look you 898 00:37:07,090 --> 00:37:05,180 know that doesn't that go with it you 899 00:37:10,210 --> 00:37:07,100 know all the memories and the stars and 900 00:37:11,380 --> 00:37:10,220 whatever else has happened to be and 901 00:37:13,270 --> 00:37:11,390 they think well no you'll be made whole 902 00:37:15,670 --> 00:37:13,280 again you know the blind shall see the 903 00:37:16,900 --> 00:37:15,680 Deaf show ear and the you know 904 00:37:17,829 --> 00:37:16,910 handicapped or whatever will be made 905 00:37:19,900 --> 00:37:17,839 whole again 906 00:37:21,849 --> 00:37:19,910 and so here I quote my friend Julia 907 00:37:23,910 --> 00:37:21,859 Sweeney did Saturday Night Live's media 908 00:37:26,829 --> 00:37:23,920 and her monologue letting go of God 909 00:37:28,569 --> 00:37:26,839 where the Mormon boys come to her house 910 00:37:30,549 --> 00:37:28,579 in Hollywood and knock on the door and 911 00:37:32,289 --> 00:37:30,559 there pitching their Mormon religion you 912 00:37:34,900 --> 00:37:32,299 know everybody gets a planet and so on 913 00:37:36,759 --> 00:37:34,910 and in the you know the blind shall see 914 00:37:38,620 --> 00:37:36,769 in the Deaf shelter yourself because 915 00:37:40,029 --> 00:37:38,630 well I had uterine cancer so I don't 916 00:37:42,279 --> 00:37:40,039 have my uterus anymore do I get my 917 00:37:43,959 --> 00:37:42,289 uterus back when I go to heaven if you 918 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:43,969 can imagine these 18 year old boys there 919 00:37:48,309 --> 00:37:46,130 starts white shirts guards uterus I 920 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:48,319 don't know yeah you get your uterus 921 00:37:52,539 --> 00:37:50,170 patch because I don't want it back 922 00:37:56,890 --> 00:37:52,549 because what if you had a nose job and 923 00:37:59,380 --> 00:37:56,900 you like no I mean so there's all kinds 924 00:38:01,059 --> 00:37:59,390 of logistical issues here what are we 925 00:38:03,039 --> 00:38:01,069 talking about when you're up there okay 926 00:38:04,779 --> 00:38:03,049 maybe it's not the physical but it's 927 00:38:07,390 --> 00:38:04,789 just your memories okay but which 928 00:38:10,420 --> 00:38:07,400 memories because there's no such thing 929 00:38:11,829 --> 00:38:10,430 as a fix you your memories change 930 00:38:14,319 --> 00:38:11,839 throughout your life they're like a wiki 931 00:38:16,269 --> 00:38:14,329 they're edited constantly and they're 932 00:38:18,130 --> 00:38:16,279 upgraded and changed depending on new 933 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:18,140 circumstances we know that we were 934 00:38:23,769 --> 00:38:20,410 biased and we back engineer into our 935 00:38:26,469 --> 00:38:23,779 memories the consequences of what we did 936 00:38:29,049 --> 00:38:26,479 so we justify and rewrite our memories 937 00:38:30,519 --> 00:38:29,059 to justify our actions and so on so all 938 00:38:33,609 --> 00:38:30,529 this happens in the course of a lifetime 939 00:38:35,499 --> 00:38:33,619 there's no like if we took a snapshot of 940 00:38:37,749 --> 00:38:35,509 your connectome as it's called the 941 00:38:39,519 --> 00:38:37,759 analog of your genome and copied it and 942 00:38:41,950 --> 00:38:39,529 put it in the clouds it's the scientific 943 00:38:43,630 --> 00:38:41,960 version of what we're talking about here 944 00:38:45,279 --> 00:38:43,640 that I write about I call it the 945 00:38:46,930 --> 00:38:45,289 afterlife or atheist because this is 946 00:38:48,999 --> 00:38:46,940 what a lot of people are trying to do 947 00:38:50,650 --> 00:38:49,009 copy the connectome which would 948 00:38:53,109 --> 00:38:50,660 presumably be all your memories and 949 00:38:54,789 --> 00:38:53,119 float it off and to store it in a 950 00:38:57,880 --> 00:38:54,799 computer or put it in the cloud or 951 00:38:59,289 --> 00:38:57,890 something to turn it on so first of all 952 00:39:01,089 --> 00:38:59,299 which memories cuz that's just a 953 00:39:03,370 --> 00:39:01,099 snapshot of me at that particular moment 954 00:39:05,620 --> 00:39:03,380 and then if it continues those memories 955 00:39:07,900 --> 00:39:05,630 are going to keep changing but but worse 956 00:39:09,339 --> 00:39:07,910 is the point of view self the point of 957 00:39:11,859 --> 00:39:09,349 view of me looking out through the world 958 00:39:14,799 --> 00:39:11,869 and experiencing life now with there's a 959 00:39:16,630 --> 00:39:14,809 continuation from day to day interrupted 960 00:39:20,049 --> 00:39:16,640 by sleep and anesthesia or whatever but 961 00:39:22,989 --> 00:39:20,059 but there's a continuation to turn it 962 00:39:26,349 --> 00:39:22,999 off and copy it turn it off kill me and 963 00:39:28,150 --> 00:39:26,359 then put the copy into the cloud I don't 964 00:39:31,660 --> 00:39:28,160 think my point of view self would go 965 00:39:33,309 --> 00:39:31,670 with it any more than if we say copy 966 00:39:35,530 --> 00:39:33,319 you Alex right now with the 967 00:39:38,079 --> 00:39:35,540 sophisticated fMRI brain scanner copied 968 00:39:40,030 --> 00:39:38,089 your connectome and uploaded the digital 969 00:39:41,470 --> 00:39:40,040 file of all your memories into the cloud 970 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:41,480 while you're still alive and you're 971 00:39:46,900 --> 00:39:43,970 still sitting there in your podcast room 972 00:39:50,260 --> 00:39:46,910 they're alive and awake and fine and we 973 00:39:51,789 --> 00:39:50,270 turn the copy on up in the cloud your 974 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:51,799 point of view self wouldn't suddenly 975 00:39:56,589 --> 00:39:53,450 leap there you'd be still sitting there 976 00:39:59,289 --> 00:39:56,599 going no no this is me Alex that is the 977 00:40:01,599 --> 00:39:59,299 copy now the copy is not you is a copy 978 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:01,609 now the copy may think it's you when 979 00:40:07,359 --> 00:40:03,170 he's running a podcast or somewhere else 980 00:40:10,510 --> 00:40:07,369 but it's not you okay so all of this is 981 00:40:12,579 --> 00:40:10,520 sort of the deeper philosophical problem 982 00:40:14,770 --> 00:40:12,589 the problem of identity you know who are 983 00:40:16,630 --> 00:40:14,780 you we know for example that our bodies 984 00:40:18,220 --> 00:40:16,640 are recycled every seven to ten years 985 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:18,230 you're not the same man you were a 986 00:40:24,069 --> 00:40:20,690 decade ago as I'm sure your your friends 987 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:24,079 tell you okay come on man that's funny 988 00:40:29,500 --> 00:40:27,770 no you're funny you're a good you know 989 00:40:32,410 --> 00:40:29,510 one of the things that when I want to 990 00:40:34,510 --> 00:40:32,420 talk to people about Michael Shermer and 991 00:40:35,890 --> 00:40:34,520 I talk to people are kind of on the 992 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:35,900 other side of the camp the friend of me 993 00:40:40,750 --> 00:40:38,210 kind of camp you know everybody likes 994 00:40:43,089 --> 00:40:40,760 you you're just you're just a good guy 995 00:40:44,770 --> 00:40:43,099 or you've got to talk to your the other 996 00:40:46,930 --> 00:40:44,780 thing is you're a very open guy you know 997 00:40:48,220 --> 00:40:46,940 not a lot of people do these interviews 998 00:40:50,980 --> 00:40:48,230 you probably forgot what the show is 999 00:40:52,539 --> 00:40:50,990 about which is okay too but you know you 1000 00:40:55,450 --> 00:40:52,549 are an open guy you are a guy who's 1001 00:40:58,569 --> 00:40:55,460 willing to get on stage with Deepak 1002 00:41:00,970 --> 00:40:58,579 Chopra or whoever it is and hash these 1003 00:41:02,410 --> 00:41:00,980 ideas out and I think that's why what I 1004 00:41:05,950 --> 00:41:02,420 was alluding to at the beginning is that 1005 00:41:08,559 --> 00:41:05,960 I haven't seen anyone else do it quite 1006 00:41:09,789 --> 00:41:08,569 like Shermer does it and you think 1007 00:41:12,670 --> 00:41:09,799 there's gonna be other people are gonna 1008 00:41:15,039 --> 00:41:12,680 step in there and do it but I don't see 1009 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:15,049 him on the horizon so I think it's 1010 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:18,410 pretty cool I'm not in agreement with 1011 00:41:23,829 --> 00:41:21,650 heavens on earth but I'm sure glad that 1012 00:41:26,260 --> 00:41:23,839 you're out there doing what you do 1013 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:26,270 you're in San Francisco you're going 1014 00:41:30,940 --> 00:41:29,210 full speed ahead trying to communicate 1015 00:41:32,799 --> 00:41:30,950 these ideas you're on stage talking 1016 00:41:34,240 --> 00:41:32,809 about it what are you doing for this 1017 00:41:38,589 --> 00:41:34,250 book and then what are you doing 1018 00:41:40,690 --> 00:41:38,599 you know what book events but actually 1019 00:41:42,130 --> 00:41:40,700 I'm on stage with Deepak on Tuesday in 1020 00:41:43,750 --> 00:41:42,140 New York City for the intelligence 1021 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:43,760 squared debate I don't know when you're 1022 00:41:48,820 --> 00:41:45,530 going to air this but if to 1023 00:41:50,950 --> 00:41:48,830 March 27 its livestream people who watch 1024 00:41:54,340 --> 00:41:50,960 it the resolution is the more we have 1025 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:54,350 all the less we need God okay so he's 1026 00:42:00,550 --> 00:41:55,610 gonna argue I'm not sure what he's doing 1027 00:42:01,510 --> 00:42:00,560 argue but argue a long time blah listen 1028 00:42:04,870 --> 00:42:01,520 to you and I thought you had a great 1029 00:42:06,820 --> 00:42:04,880 point but it was kind of a weary point 1030 00:42:09,910 --> 00:42:06,830 about when you were doing the evolution 1031 00:42:11,830 --> 00:42:09,920 thing with discovery what discover 1032 00:42:13,990 --> 00:42:11,840 against - yeah yeah yeah I said look 1033 00:42:15,490 --> 00:42:14,000 after a while you know I'm gonna go out 1034 00:42:16,510 --> 00:42:15,500 there and I'm gonna wheel out my stuff 1035 00:42:17,890 --> 00:42:16,520 and they're gonna go out there and 1036 00:42:19,570 --> 00:42:17,900 they're gonna wheel out their stuff and 1037 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:19,580 you know it's kind of predictable not a 1038 00:42:26,140 --> 00:42:22,210 lot but you set it in a way that is like 1039 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:26,150 truly you know almost like a theatre 1040 00:42:30,460 --> 00:42:28,970 actor a stage actor who has to do it 1041 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:30,470 still you know I mean that person came 1042 00:42:34,390 --> 00:42:32,450 to see Michael Shermer to see that 1043 00:42:36,430 --> 00:42:34,400 debate to see that played out and that's 1044 00:42:38,260 --> 00:42:36,440 important - so it doesn't demean the 1045 00:42:40,870 --> 00:42:38,270 fact that people might have heard both 1046 00:42:43,090 --> 00:42:40,880 sides of this argument before right yeah 1047 00:42:45,670 --> 00:42:43,100 and so and again I mean we have to have 1048 00:42:47,470 --> 00:42:45,680 some epistemic humility you know we 1049 00:42:50,710 --> 00:42:47,480 don't even know what you don't know and 1050 00:42:52,180 --> 00:42:50,720 there's a lot we don't know then we 1051 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:52,190 don't even know we don't know about 1052 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:54,530 things like consciousness so it's 1053 00:42:59,290 --> 00:42:56,450 entirely possible that someone like 1054 00:43:01,360 --> 00:42:59,300 Deepak or yourself or whoever or 1055 00:43:03,790 --> 00:43:01,370 Christians talking about the afterlife 1056 00:43:05,980 --> 00:43:03,800 or or Jews or Muslims you know there's 1057 00:43:08,350 --> 00:43:05,990 lots and lots of different versions of 1058 00:43:11,290 --> 00:43:08,360 this out there that I write about and 1059 00:43:13,630 --> 00:43:11,300 you know you know I guess you know one 1060 00:43:16,090 --> 00:43:13,640 of the one of the appealing things about 1061 00:43:17,590 --> 00:43:16,100 cryonics would be that that you come 1062 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:17,600 back in a thousand years to see what 1063 00:43:23,140 --> 00:43:20,690 people think then about consciousness 1064 00:43:25,750 --> 00:43:23,150 black holes or you know whatever you 1065 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:25,760 know the science moves on and you know 1066 00:43:29,230 --> 00:43:27,890 it's just hard to like we're like fish 1067 00:43:31,350 --> 00:43:29,240 in the water you know we don't even know 1068 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:31,360 that the water is there I don't know 1069 00:43:36,430 --> 00:43:34,130 you know this is why I like Steve 1070 00:43:38,230 --> 00:43:36,440 pingers point about this question of 1071 00:43:40,780 --> 00:43:38,240 consciousness you know the hard problem 1072 00:43:43,390 --> 00:43:40,790 consciousness it maybe that's been 1073 00:43:44,830 --> 00:43:43,400 phrased in a way that we'll never be 1074 00:43:46,690 --> 00:43:44,840 able to answer it the way we're thinking 1075 00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:46,700 about it now we need to think about it 1076 00:43:50,590 --> 00:43:48,890 in some completely different way and 1077 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:50,600 that may be the case you know there's a 1078 00:43:54,820 --> 00:43:52,330 group of people called the mysterion's 1079 00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:54,830 Martin Gardner was one of these that you 1080 00:43:59,200 --> 00:43:57,530 know there's certain mysteries that it's 1081 00:44:01,780 --> 00:43:59,210 not just that we haven't solved them 1082 00:44:03,790 --> 00:44:01,790 we just have to improve our technologies 1083 00:44:07,750 --> 00:44:03,800 of experiments or whatever is that 1084 00:44:09,490 --> 00:44:07,760 they're insoluble and free like Sam Sam 1085 00:44:11,260 --> 00:44:09,500 Maris and I disagree on freewill he's a 1086 00:44:12,069 --> 00:44:11,270 he's a strict determine Islamic 1087 00:44:14,020 --> 00:44:12,079 compatibilist 1088 00:44:15,940 --> 00:44:14,030 I agree we live in a determined universe 1089 00:44:17,460 --> 00:44:15,950 but that we're part of the causal net 1090 00:44:20,109 --> 00:44:17,470 and we can tweak it and change it 1091 00:44:22,540 --> 00:44:20,119 volitionally but at some point we just 1092 00:44:24,190 --> 00:44:22,550 run into a brick wall of words you know 1093 00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:24,200 what do you mean by determined what do 1094 00:44:30,790 --> 00:44:27,530 you mean by free or volitionalist or 1095 00:44:33,609 --> 00:44:30,800 whatever and like for example I say say 1096 00:44:36,910 --> 00:44:33,619 I said to Sam what's the you know so we 1097 00:44:39,460 --> 00:44:36,920 have a we have a opioid addiction crisis 1098 00:44:41,230 --> 00:44:39,470 in the country now yeah it appears that 1099 00:44:42,970 --> 00:44:41,240 there are some people that really cannot 1100 00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:42,980 control themselves they just go down a 1101 00:44:48,730 --> 00:44:45,530 path and they can't stop and they 1102 00:44:50,859 --> 00:44:48,740 overdose now I don't have this problem I 1103 00:44:52,569 --> 00:44:50,869 know people that are alcoholics my 1104 00:44:54,370 --> 00:44:52,579 father was an alcoholic I can have a 1105 00:44:57,069 --> 00:44:54,380 couple drinks and stop he couldn't I 1106 00:44:58,660 --> 00:44:57,079 know people that cannot stop now 1107 00:44:59,740 --> 00:44:58,670 what's the if we all live in a 1108 00:45:00,910 --> 00:44:59,750 determined universe and we're all 1109 00:45:03,549 --> 00:45:00,920 determined what's the difference doing 1110 00:45:06,039 --> 00:45:03,559 that guy we can't stop and mean can stop 1111 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:06,049 that he's more determined and I'm less 1112 00:45:09,849 --> 00:45:08,210 determined I mean what you know this is 1113 00:45:12,700 --> 00:45:09,859 my ID and any calls this degrees of 1114 00:45:14,079 --> 00:45:12,710 freedom you know there's certain amounts 1115 00:45:16,510 --> 00:45:14,089 of things you can control or can't 1116 00:45:19,630 --> 00:45:16,520 control depending on a lot of different 1117 00:45:22,420 --> 00:45:19,640 factors so but at some point I told this 1118 00:45:23,740 --> 00:45:22,430 to Sam and Sam says no no no you're 1119 00:45:26,829 --> 00:45:23,750 still determined you're just determined 1120 00:45:28,420 --> 00:45:26,839 in a different way maybe yeah but 1121 00:45:32,049 --> 00:45:28,430 wondering so what do we mean by that 1122 00:45:33,910 --> 00:45:32,059 word determined you know so and what 1123 00:45:35,950 --> 00:45:33,920 kind of this with the point dinkenstein 1124 00:45:38,140 --> 00:45:35,960 made that we're we're restricted by the 1125 00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:38,150 words we use because we have concepts 1126 00:45:43,359 --> 00:45:40,490 the only way for being you to share our 1127 00:45:45,430 --> 00:45:43,369 concepts is to talk and use words and 1128 00:45:46,569 --> 00:45:45,440 the words have certain meanings and 1129 00:45:48,010 --> 00:45:46,579 maybe you mean something slightly 1130 00:45:49,660 --> 00:45:48,020 different than what I mean so we have to 1131 00:45:51,910 --> 00:45:49,670 operationally define the words we're 1132 00:45:55,210 --> 00:45:51,920 using so when we measure it and I look 1133 00:45:56,770 --> 00:45:55,220 at it you point at it then look we're 1134 00:45:59,710 --> 00:45:56,780 talking about the same thing that's not 1135 00:46:02,640 --> 00:45:59,720 always easy to do in science and I think 1136 00:46:05,500 --> 00:46:02,650 consciousness is especially difficult 1137 00:46:08,410 --> 00:46:05,510 problem anyway so that's that's my piece 1138 00:46:10,569 --> 00:46:08,420 there good it's a good piece so again 1139 00:46:12,849 --> 00:46:10,579 folks the name of the book is heavens on 1140 00:46:15,549 --> 00:46:12,859 earth the scientific 1141 00:46:18,009 --> 00:46:15,559 search for the afterlife immortality in 1142 00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:18,019 Utopia our guest has been the one and 1143 00:46:22,710 --> 00:46:20,450 only dr. Michael Shermer thank you so 1144 00:46:24,519 --> 00:46:22,720 much for joining me I really do create 1145 00:46:27,900 --> 00:46:24,529 keep up the good work 1146 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:27,910 hahahaha but you're the skeptic skeptic 1147 00:46:31,599 --> 00:46:29,930 somebody's got to do it 1148 00:46:32,950 --> 00:46:31,609 hey somebody you know just like the fact 1149 00:46:35,829 --> 00:46:32,960 checker Sammy's got a fact check the 1150 00:46:39,489 --> 00:46:35,839 fact checkers the dr. Seuss who's 1151 00:46:40,329 --> 00:46:39,499 watching the Watchers right okay buddy